Learning/Problems from across the way #1

[richmond62]

https://forums.livecode.com/viewtopic.php?f=104&t=39009

This concerns a problem to do with MacOS users with non-English 'somethings' (whether physical keyboards, OS versions, or keyboard layouts is unclear) NOT getting the '=' sign when the press the '=' key on the numberpad to the right of most keyboards.

It 100% must also affect OXT at this stage of development so deserves our full attention.

[richmond62]

In what my wife calls "Your hole", here at home are the number pads of the 2 keyboards currently connected to computers:
-

KB1.jpg (13.76 KiB) Viewed 3541 times

US layout.
-

KB2.jpg (18.28 KiB) Viewed 3541 times

Combined US & Arabic layout.
-
You should be able to see that they BOTH have '=' keys beneath the volume increase key.

[tperry2x]

The key above your 7, which is your num lock key - going to the right, I have
/
*
-

...on a UK keyboard, I only have one = key. Do you have two = keys then?

uk-layout.png (554.59 KiB) Viewed 3537 times

What key does the OP get in LC (and I assume also OXT) if they were to press it?
(I can't read the original post as it's asking for a login, which I don't have)

Irrespective of all of that though.
If LC / OXT won't pick up on the numpad = key, I wonder what the raw key down signal it receives is when this key is pressed? This is why I ask, as I'd of expected the raw key to be identified as 61 (which should be the same?) - I've added this livecodestack for them to test, if they want. I wonder what the rawkey number they get with their numpad = would be?

Keyboard_test.livecode

(8.27 KiB) Downloaded 112 times

Screenshot at 2024-03-27 15-57-15.png (8.58 KiB) Viewed 3531 times

[richmond62]

The ,=, key on a 'standard' 109 key Mac keyboard has a rawKey number of 65469, which is the Unicode address for a Korean Hangul glyph 'ﾽ', and either the OS, or each application/program does some sort of 'magic' to deliver a '='.

Now, to be really snobbish; your keyboard is a non-Mac "cheap-n-nasty":
-

crapKB.jpg (345.63 KiB) Viewed 3515 times

-
One I found on a Bulgarian website . . .

Which, as you can see, has fewer rows of keys on its number pad than a Mac one.

Older Mac keyboards (like the ones I use) have 3 volume control keys and a CD eject key along the top, newer ones, such as the 'magic' one, has additional F keys there:
-

Screenshot 2024-03-27 at 19.20.14.png (140.21 KiB) Viewed 3513 times

-
The 'magic' keyboard has been specially designed so that it is hard to see what is written on the keys.

I have one of these keyboards "somewhere", that someone gave me, just in case all my keyboards suddenly go 'poof' simultaneously.

[richmond62]

Most generic number pads also do NOT have an '=' key, which strikes me as a bit daft:
-

generic.jpg (22.4 KiB) Viewed 3509 times

-

Screenshot 2024-03-27 at 19.40.12.png (32.59 KiB) Viewed 3509 times

[tperry2x]

Now, to be really snobbish; your keyboard is a non-Mac "cheap-n-nasty":

crapKB.jpg

Well, not an Apple one you mean. Yes, non mac. Like 99% of computers at my workplace. 412 of them use non-mac keyboards... being non-macs

Cheap and nasty, that one in the pic. Yes maybe. But there are plenty here with interchangeable keysets around, that definitely aren't "cheap and nasty" without the extra Apple accessories (read: jewellery / accoutrements) stuck on for good measure.

A standard (non-mac) keyboard, that the majority of people may be using, without extra 'bells and whistles' is perhaps more 'the normal'.

I was simply interested in knowing what the raw key number is interpreted as, to help diagnose the problem. (Keyboard snobbery or personal preferences aside: that doesn't matter). You could have an ergonomic keyboard that looks like it's spent it's life draped over a radiator, however doesn't matter. What matters are how the keys are identified.

[richmond62]

I feel sorry for you as you are obviously not into Looksmaxxing, which with computery people begins, of course, with a gold-plated Mac Studio, and a PROPER keyboard with a '=' on the number pad:
-
[removed unrelated picture of paris hilton]

[tperry2x]

It's all window dressing, isn't it. See point above.
(I think you may have a Paris Hilton obsession , as you did the same here too)

[richmond62]

It's all window dressing, isn't it. See point above.

Absolutely: especially as I don't think that after 25 years of using this keyboard (! Apple products USED TO BE robust !) I had never really noticed the '=' key on the number pad until the OP across the way asked the question about it.

But, then, I use a spade to dig my garden, NOT a rotavator.

Right: that's enough: off to do some 'mewing' to improve my jawline . . . LOL

[tperry2x]

So are we any closer to knowing what the raw key number of the offending = key is reported as, for the OP?
Or are we assuming it's 65469?

I'm assuming it's not, as you get an = char with keycode 65469. If they don't see a = (which I don't know as can't view the original post), then I'd be interested to know what raw keycode number they get.

If not, then I shan't worry about it. Can't support every keyboard / layout / language - and I suppose as xTalk is not multi-lingual, probably don't have to worry too much about it.

[OpenXTalkPaul]

In what my wife calls "Your hole", here at home are the number pads of the 2 keyboards currently connected to computers:

HAH ha! @"Your hole" That's what my wife calls my basement lair filled with vintage gear too

Those appear to be Apple's old full size keyboards with the volume and eject keys above the num pad, I have a bunch of those, even a 'Bondi Blue" (in the US versions of course). I'll have to look into this.

[OpenXTalkPaul]

Code: Select all

put numToCodePoint (65469)

...Is not going to work because I'm fairly certain these 'rawKey' numbers do not coincide with multi-byte unicode characters, so numToCodePoint would not be applicable here.

I imagine these numbers are based on some sort of industry standard numbering, scan codes? It's not entirely clear what these larger rawKey numbers, the ones beyond the ASCII set, were assigned based on?

I'm on a modern Mac extended US keyboard right now and there is no "=" key in the numpad section, top row is 'clear / * -' with 'zoom in, zoom out, force quit, and power' buttons mini-keys above the numpads. No '=' key.
Usually I use numpad with 'enter' key and only in calculator sort of context, I never use it when writing scripts.

[OpenXTalkPaul]

I'm still not sure what these rawKey numbers are actually based on? I mean these larger numbers that get returned, beyond the base ASCII set of characters. Are they standards keyboard 'scan codes' based? Or 'virtual key codes'''? Based on some extended character encoding number set such as classic Mac Roman? When I check these numbers against various lists, I can't make these numbers in the 6500s range match any of the numberings I've found in various lists of keyboard scan codes and the like.

Here's a PDF of a list of these numbers returned from rawKeyDown . that I had collected at one poin, produced by a newer Aluminum Apple US Keyboard :
https://github.com/PaulMcClernan/LiveCo ... 0CODES.pdf

I image this issue with international keyboards not placing the '=' character could be easy to work-around by adding to main stack script a rawKeyDown script which translates / forwards it as the desired character like so:

Code: Select all

on rawKeyDown pKey
  if pKey is 65469 then
     send "keyDown =" to the focusedControl
  else 
     pass rawKeyDown
  end if 
end rawKeyDown