OpenXTalk Lite Beta Testers

[FourthWorld]

So . . . to work:

1. 'business sense' . . .

For the sake of argument:

I produce a piece of software called 'Devawriter Pro'...

Consumer apps and development platforms have very different needs.

If a consumer app stops working, it inconveniences the user.

If a development platform stops working, it causes material harm to an entire downstream ecosystem.

For this reason, attracting new developers to a platform will depend on the ability to demonstrate sustainability.

2. 'self-sustaining' . . .

Dunno what that means. Software is never 'self-sustaining'; either someone keeps developing it or they don't: it certainly does NOT do it by itself.

That is precisely the reason behind my focus on funding.

3. 'in a business sense' . . .

Even though the LiveCode community codebase is open source, someone could (as far as I know) charge money for an IDE based on it [although they would have to make their variant code-base freely available], and that could be at a price that would undercut the commercial version...

If by "commercial version" you mean the proprietary product produced by another entity, what separate orgs do may inform one another but carry no obligations either way.

As a practical matter, however, paywalling open source rarely helps. The license openly encourages sharing. So while the license expresses no opinion on fees, as a practical matter a single sale would be all that's needed to spawn a fork which could then be shared at any price, or none at all.

For this reason, most successful open source projects rely on grants, donations, and service work rather than usage fees.

4. GIMP / Inkscape / LibreOffice / Mozilla

How much these applications are dependent on paid income (rather than donations) is not clear to me. However, unlike what I outlined above, they do have paid employees.

Yes, most have at least some salaried staff, but the income to cover payroll comes from donations, grants, and services, rather than usage fees.

5. 'self-sustaining' . . .

If by that you mean some sort of 'LC 963 Community Continuation' foundation [pace LibreOffice], that's a whole different thing in terms of organisation and scale.

Yes, it is, a scale which aims beyond limping along to keep legacy scripts alive for a couple years, to seek new audiences using the technology to build new things.

I am not at all sure why something like that should be necessary

We seem to share an awareness of the critical need for funding to employ the C++ experts needed to fulfill the mission.

A nonprofit foundation would provide a means for donations made to support the project to be tax-deductible. If you've served on the board for a nonprofit, you know how important that is for attracting donations, esp from institutions.

[richmond62]

a sustainable platform

Is this meant to mean: constant availability of the platform and work on it to guarantee it continues to work on new versions of operating systems and/or processors?

Or

Does it mean the above + ongoing development in respect of new features and new capabilities?

[richmond62]

OK, OK, OK: Happy People . . .

I had a 'second bash' with 'Lite' under WINE on my 32-bit laptop running Debian XFCE [in terms of breathing life into a 19-20 year old laptop I cannot recommend Debian + XFCE enough], and got a 'whole new ball game'.

Somethings positive, somethings negative, and some things just a bit odd (a bit like me on all 3 of those).

I have a slew of 'sexy' screenshots.

However I will NOT post those until I have tried the same thing with LC 963 Windows 32-bit under the same circumstances [i.e. on the same machine].

It IS, perhaps, worth noting that LC 963 Windows 64-bit runs 99% under WINE 8 on MacOS 14 'Sonoma' beta 5 [the 1% being that the Dictionary doesn't work].

Oooer: there is WIFI on that old Toshiba laptop [when my Dad bought it it was state of the !@#$%^&], but it is well slow right now downloading LC 963 Windows 32-bit.

So: I shall champ my jaws 32 times {or maybe even 64 times] while I wait.

[FourthWorld]

a sustainable platform

Is this meant to mean: constant availability of the platform and work on it to guarantee it continues to work on new versions of operating systems and/or processors?

Or

Does it mean the above + ongoing development in respect of new features and new capabilities?

The two are inseparable if we seek sustainability.

Audience growth is essential for survival.

And if there's any lesson to be learned from the last 30 years of software, it is this:

Mediocre technology with a compelling user experience will vastly outsell great tech with a weak user experience.

No matter how good an engine, UX is where the rubber meets the road. Without it, the vehicle goes nowhere.

[richmond62]

This thread is getting kinky insofar as we seem to be discussing 2 quite distinct things at the same time.

I have no idea how to do this sort of thing, nor do I have the permissions to do it, so I would be most grateful if the 'list Mum' [err, Paul] could tease these things apart into 2 separate threads . . .

[richmond62]

And so to 'Lite' . . .

Suffering from various interesting hallucinations during my attempt to have an afternoon nap I thought that I'd try 'Lite' again under WINE on my 32-bit Debian 12 + XFCE rig . . . also hallucinatory in its own right.

Having done that I thought [after a fairly strong and informative glass of gin and tonic] that BEFORE 'rubbishing Terry' it would only be fair to have a go at running LC 963 32-bit for Windows on the same machine . . .

So, like siamese twins [whoops, perhaps that's not PC/Woke nowadays] I will present a series of paired screenshots . . .
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T3.png (253.75 KiB) Viewed 11125 times

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So, second time around I get a seriously wonky start up thing.

This should not be necessary as it is perfectly possible to replace this:
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with this:
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[richmond62]

The the 'fun' really started:
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T4.png (81.26 KiB) Viewed 11125 times

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at which point I started thinking some fairly offensive things.

And the 'fun' went on:
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Well, to be fair, that screen is also pretty redundant.
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No menus.

[richmond62]

Luckily owing to the gin I started wondering that was Terry or it was me.

So I downloaded LC 963 Windows 32-bit and started the install process.
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Bloody Hell: it was me: well, 'me' insofar as the WINE install on my Linux rig was playing silly buggers with all the text boxes.

As my 'pirate days' are long gone, I have NO idea what will happen on real Windows.

I do believe that this sort of rubbish:
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is 'my' fault rather than Terry's.

HOWEVER, using key combinations 'Lite' does open stacks:
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BUT, as an alpha, beta tester of Windows software I am afraid I am not being much use.

[FourthWorld]

This thread is getting kinky insofar as we seem to be discussing 2 quite distinct things at the same time.

I have no idea how to do this sort of thing, nor do I have the permissions to do it, so I would be most grateful if the 'list Mum' [err, Paul] could tease these things apart into 2 separate threads . . .

No need. This subthread was relevant only in exploring why any "lite" goal is unlikely to be accomplished where it requires C++ engineering.

Its usefulness has run its natural course, and with zero funding options on the horizon need not be continued.

[richmond62]

with zero funding options on the horizon need not be continued

That is your opinion: it is not mine.

Actually a 'Big Squish' like that is far from helpful.

[tperry2x]

...AND, if I "DO" it will NOT be called OpenXTalk.

What would you call it?
I just imagine trying to get our computer science teacher to promote xTalk (and having the entire year 7 class burst into fits of giggles as the name sounds like some kind of really suspect adult chat room).

The name CrossTalk doesn't work too well either. Negative implications that it'll make you cross if you are a beginner and trying it for the first time.

I'm sure we can come up with something better than Xavvi though.

[tperry2x]

with zero funding options on the horizon need not be continued

That is your opinion: it is not mine.

With zero funding options on the horizon, doesn't mean the project is dead. We just need to attract volunteer coders. Yes, they do exist. Debian is completely non-profit and people contribute to that purely as they are dedicated in getting it to be as good as it can be, and keeping it out of the clutches of some monolithic profiteering company.

How do we attract volunteers to help with the OXT recode and the engine rewrite? Don't know. Put a few videos on Youtube of the current state of OXT, but also what it's capable of creating - give people a reason to want to develop it and take it further. If we have to, crowd-source it. Gofundme... anything. Even Haiku can raise money (https://www.haiku-os.org/) purely through word of mouth and people wanting to see it succeed. This is only because people are aware of it's existence. Not many people have ever heard of LC and even smaller numbers know of OXT.

[richmond62]

I am not convinced about the urge that some people have to call this "something + Talk".

A few years back I posted an April fool's thing on the LiveCode forums advertising a supposed competitor to LiveCode called 'DeadCode'.

So . . .let's, as my Primary school teacher used to say, "Get our thinking caps on."
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as in "new Code", or, maybe "nude Code".
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as in "Runtime Revolution Reborn", or "Richmond's Rotten Rampage".
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Speaks for itself.

[tperry2x]

So . . .let's, as my Primary school teacher used to say, "Get our thinking caps on."

Well, if we are going to try and get people on board with something, we'll need a name. So it better be a good one. And one that makes sense.

Let's see: It's free software with no hidden agendas, it's a simple 'natural-english' type programming language and should not be a chore to use, and should be able to 'play nicely' with multiple operating systems....

How about the name Etiquette?
I know, sounds odd - but we have Python (and that might have been inspired by Monty Python of all things).
I was going with the name Etiquette because it's got positive connotations straight away, doesn't reference *something*Talk at all, and there's no such thing as the 'Etiquette IDE' as I write this.

You might dislike it.. I don't know, but it's a simple name that sums up what the IDE should be (in my view).
Plus the name Etiquette is a bit of a dig in the direction of the folks at LC. It's exactly the opposite to the way they have responded to the open source community, the countless fundraising, and the general attitude of the folks 'up there' in their office.

[richmond62]

Dunno: anyway, over here, in Bulgaria it is bathtime followed by bed, so I will leave you with what my addled brain came up with just to tease you a little bit:
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Somehow I cannot help thinking that all those radical name changes did the thing NO good at all: so there needs to be some link with the past.

While 'Etiquette' is nice, I wonder how many people actually know what that word means, and whether there will be any percieved connexion with programming software.

[tperry2x]

Haha, I get the prince reference.

Perhaps we just need a symbol.
That didn't work out too well for him though.

[FourthWorld]

with zero funding options on the horizon need not be continued

That is your opinion: it is not mine.

Actually a 'Big Squish' like that is far from helpful.

I was referring only to the subthread about forming a nonprofit foundation for continuing the work. If you find funding keep us posted. Until then I won't be furthering this thread.

[richmond62]

Re 'models', one could do worse than look at this one-man operation:

https://www.tigabyte.com/hnfiles/about.html

[FourthWorld]

Re 'models', one could do worse than look at this one-man operation:

https://www.tigabyte.com/hnfiles/about.html

Perhaps you've found the solution you've been looking for.

[TerryL]

Thank you Richmond for trying to take a look at my IDE hack. I regret I don't own all three platforms in 64-bit, just one bottom-of-the-line old PC, but Paul has had 2 years and I put my hack together in 4 months. I assure you, it does exist. I'll try a few screen shots, but uploading rarely works for me.

I've made more than 20 hacks, mostly to the menu. There's also re-written debranded: User Guide, Data Grid Guide, Data Grid Tour, SQLite Tour. Plugins: Quick Dictionary and Report Builder. Improved Menu Builder, debranded Preferences, a Yellow-Hilite, and lighter Blue-Hilite for message box. New About.txt, About splash, Release Notes. I was hoping Mark would offer his re-compiled Engine (I don't know what platform) he passed to Paul.

I'll repeat, I'm not the guy to do this. I prefer working behind the scenes. Don't care to present philosophical manifestos. I don't know multi-platform specific things. I'll make what I have available. I was hoping someone else could shape it to Mac and Linux. Don't get too hung-up on the name, it takes ten minutes to change, I just want to differentiate it from Paul's project. Terry
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